For other posts in this exchange:
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3
Fourth Response
Hello Keith,
Thank you for your reply.
I will try to deal with all you say, if you notice me missing something you think I should respond to, just let me know. It is not at all my intention to ask entrapping questions, but the questions I ask are those which come to my mind in honestly dealing with this matter.
Romans 13:1-7.
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God, and those who resist shall receive for themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same,
4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Therefore ye must be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For this cause pay ye tribute also, for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
What do these verses teach?
- Every person is to subject to all higher powers (in reference to earthly kingdoms), because they are ordained by God.
- Those who resist higher powers resist the ordinance of God and therefore shall receive damnation.
- Because rulers are a terror for evildoers and if you don’t want to be afraid of them then you should do good.
- Because rulers are ministers of God for men, but if you do bad then they bear the sword not in vain, because God ordained them as an avenger to execute wrath for evildoers.
- So a Christian must subject to them not only out of fear but as a duty towards God.
- Because God commands Christians pays taxes to them, they are Gods ministers to punish evildoers
- Therefore a Christian must subject to them and give all to whom it is due.
What does Romans 13:1-7 NOT teach: that a Christian is to join the minister God uses to avenge evildoers, it is nowhere written is these verses, but you keep referring to them.
Instead Romans 13:1-7 teaches that God uses the wicked to punish the wicked. Paul instructs Christians are not to take vengeance on evildoers (Romans 12:19), because that is a given right for earthly rulers by God ordained. (1 Peter 2:13-14!!!)
I am saddened by this reaction, because you said the following in your article: “You have the right to serve as a soldier and to use lawful, deadly force when necessary (Romans 13:3-4), but you cannot allow war to reduce you to a hate filled butcher” and “Your military enemies violently oppose your faith. The temptation they pose is to cause you to become like them but in opposition to them, to hate and to kill through hatred.” You are telling your brethren that they are justified in being where they are, as long as they do not kill as a hate filled butcher. Well, then you take a political standpoint that the wars being fought are just. You then cannot hide behind the fact that you are an evangelist, while in your article you take political standpoints. But in not wanting to be a stumbling block to you I will try to be careful in saying things.
Indeed, Paul said what he taught, that if he did wrong, he would undergo the punishment of Gods avenger, the worldly powers. Did he say he would join the avenger in executing wrath? NO! So Keith, what you need to do is to show the verse where it is taught that a Christian can join the avenger of God.
I agree with you that God uses wicked nations to punish wicked nations, but again this does not at all prove or say that a Christian can join the punisher. And another thing, you cannot use the Old Testament wars to justify modern wars. The wars of Israel were often unprovoked aggression and extermination, fought under Gods command (Exodus 23:31-32; Deut 20:10-19). It was a war because God had made a right judgement over the wicked nations and not because a nation was provoked to fight a just war. So you cannot compare the two. Who then decides what a just war today? You? Did you receive a prophecy from God which wars are just and which aren’t? The problem some Christians are dealing with is nationalism, they have become partisans of an earthly kingdom.
Well, I think your thought is not right in this. God has a law for Christians and that is: “because as He is, so are we in this world” (1 John 4:17).
“Jesus answered, ‘My Kingdom is not of this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews. But now is My Kingdom not from hence.’ (John 18:36)
(Luke 19:10) “For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
If Christians are nowhere commanded to act as avengers, but to seek and save the lost, why then do you teach this? God through Paul and Peter clearly stated He uses the rulers of the world to punish the wicked. (John 19:11) You add to this teaching. Up till 2 centuries after the death of the apostles this was NOT taught, why not? Because the citizens of Gods Kingdom do not teach war anymore (Isaiah 2:4) “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9)
So, a Christian may not avenge his own enemies, but can avenge in name of a wicked nation?
I missed the scripture where it is authorized to do both, maybe you can give it. Romans 13:1-7 does not authorize a Christian to do this.
So, you are implying that Jesus here says his disciples to arm themselves to fight? “But I say unto you that ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39). If you do not mean that, then what do you mean by quoting this verse and then please explain why Jesus commands His disciples in Matthew 26:52 not to fight with the sword. Why would all that reach for the sword die by the sword?
I agree with you up till the last sentence, that is just an addition and assumption from you to what the Bible teaches. Nowhere the bible teaches that a Christian has a right to supply this force. And I do not understand your referral to Ephesians 5:11.
Brotherly,
Peter
My Reply
Keith Sharp
My dear brother, I do not question your honesty or sincerity, but I do not think you have come to grips with arguments I made from the Scriptures. The key is still Romans 13:1-7. You admit that civil rulers are acting as ministers (servants) of God when they punish evil doers, but you claim it is a sin for a Christian to do this. What is sin for a Christian is sin for an alien sinner, and vice versa, since God has one law for all (Mark 16:15; Ephesians 1:22-23). So, by your logic, one sins by acting as a minister of God. Your determination to call all governments “evil” and “wicked” underscores this fact. If all government is evil, God ordained evil. That makes God evil.
God commanded Moses to build Him a tabernacle (Exodus 25:8-9,40). When Moses built that tabernacle, he acted as God’s minister or servant (Hebrews 3:5). Thus, the ultimate Builder of the tabernacle was God (Hebrews 3:4). What God ordains He does. If He ordains evil and wickedness, He is evil and wicked. Surely, neither of us is ready for such blasphemy.
God ordained civil rulers to use lethal force to uphold justice (Romans 13:1-7). When civil rulers use such force to uphold justice, they are acting as ministers of God (Ibid). If civil rulers are evil and sinning for using deadly power to punish evil doers, then God is evil and sinning, for He ordained them, and they are His servants.
In Romans 12:19, the Lord commands, “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.” To avenge ourselves is to take personal vengeance. This is forbidden. We must leave this to God.
But Romans 13:1-7 reveals that civil government is God’s minister to take this very vengeance. If some brute injures me, I cannot seek to “get even” (Romans 12:17-21; Matthew 5:38-42). But I can report him to the police, and they can act as God’s ministers to take God’s vengeance. They are not avenging a wrong done to them personally; they are doing the work of God.
Dear brother, I wrote nothing for or against the war in Iraq. I simply tried to point out to young soldiers how to remain faithful to the Lord while serving in combat. They must determine for themselves whether they are upholding justice or not. When a Christian becomes a soldier, he still is a Christian with a conscience and must answer to God for his conduct. He has the right to use deadly force but only in a legal manner to uphold justice (Romans 13:1-7).
If Paul agreed to be put to death if he were worthy of death, and he did, then it is right for civil officers to put to death someone worthy of death. It is not wrong for a Christian to do right.
First John 4:17 says not one word abut God having a separate law for Christians. Certainly we are to be like Him. Don’t assume one is not being like Christ if he, acting lawfully as a soldier or policeman, kills to uphold justice. God has killed many people justly.
John 18:36; Luke 19:10; Isaiah 2:4; and 11:9 teach the nature of the heavenly kingdom. But the kingdoms of men are upheld by armed might (John 18:36), they are ordained of God, and those who use force to uphold their just laws are God’s ministers (Romans 13:1-7). It is no sin to act as God’s minister to carry out a function He ordained.
Yes, Old Testament wars may be used to justify modern wars. In both covenants God forbids killing (Exodus 20:13; 1 John 3:15). But under both covenants He authorizes civil rulers, whether saints or sinners, to uphold justice by killing. Under both covenants the forbidden killing is murder, the unjust taking of human life.
Matthew 5:39 is in a context forbidding personal vengeance (verse 38). Yes, Jesus authorized the use of a weapon for personal defense (Luke 22:36). Matthew 26:52, a proverbial statement, correctly teaches that one whose spends his life using deadly force will probably die in that manner. Jesus doesn’t forbid one being a soldier or a policeman.
Ephesians 5:11 forbids sharing in sin. If it is a sin for a policeman to use force, I sin by asking him to protect me, for I’m sharing in his sin, even asking him to sin. The Amish are at least consistent here, for they refuse to seek police protection. The inspired apostle Paul had no such scruples (Acts 23:12-24).
Peter, this has been a good discussion, but it is time to end it. This will be my last reply on this subject. I will continue to study this and all subjects pertaining to my salvation and hope you will do so also.
With Brotherly Love,
Keith
