When did the Church Begin?
(Exchange with a Baptist)
Part 2
Baptist Reply
(1) Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(2) John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Holy Ghost's power=Jesus Christ's power
(3) It did not have the New Testament (Hebrews 9:15-17)
Ummm... they did, it just was not written. What written NT did they have at Pentacost? None. That's what speaking in tongues was for at that time. Give them the word which they didn't have yet. What do you think Jesus Christ did while he was here? Was he only quoting OT? Also, we don't even have near all that he said or did:
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
(4) Please refer back to the answer to question
(5) He was a High Priest prior to his death. It was God who made him a high priest. Not his death. He was a priest after the order of Melchezidek.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
And that is a quote from:
Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
So he was already the high priest back before David!!!! He just hadn't brought the sacrifice yet
(6) Why would they need to pray when God is right there with them?
(7) You cannot atone a door post unless it already exists.
(8) So Christ wasn't with them? He had no say over what they did? Come on Madeline
(9) It could not preach the gospel by which we are saved (Matthew 16:20; 17:9; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). So they weren’t saved by trusting in God to provide the perfect sacrifice?
(10) It had not been purchased by Christ (Acts 20;28). You cannot purchase a bride unless she is alive.
(11) It had not been organized (Ephesians 4:8-16). How much more organized could it have been? Jesus Christ as the Shepherd. His disciples as the sheep. All those other things were not needed as of yet.
(12) Amen!
This verses (Isaiah 2:2-3 - KS) states the exact opposite. "and he will teach us of his ways". And he did. That was when he was here. That means he had to be here to do so.
Second Answer
Keith Sharp
(1) The law and the prophets led up to the time of John, the time of preparation for the kingdom (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Mark 1:1-3). At that time the kingdom was “at hand” or “near” (Matthew 3:1-2; Mark 1:14-15) but not yet established. The law and the prophets were then fading as Jesus taught the principles of His kingdom (Matthew 4:23; 5;3,20; 13:24) in preparation for its eminent establishment. Your friend makes no attempt to explain the passages I referenced but just arrays scripture against scripture. That’s no way to treat the Bible. Since it is truth (John 17:17), it doesn’t contradict itself.
(2) Jesus spoke John 14:16 while in the upper room with His apostles the night of His betrayal (cf. John 13:1). So, the night before His betrayal they were still awaiting the reception of the Holy Spirit. He had to leave them and return to heaven before they could receive the Holy Spirit (John 16:7). While Jesus was on earth the Holy Spirit did empower His apostles to work miracles, but He did not lead them into all the truth of the gospel until after Jesus went back to heaven (John 16:12-15).
(3) He must not have read Hebrews 9:15-17: And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives (emphasis mine - KS)
(4) And refer to my answer to his reply on number 1, but add Matthew 23:1-3 and Colossians 2:14 to the list of passages he can’t explain.
(5) Add Hebrews 8:4 to the list of passages He hasn’t read:“For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law.” Does being a high priest “forever” mean forever in the past? Does the Christian’s living “forever” mean forever in the past? (John 6:51,58)
(6) So the disciples weren’t to pray while Jesus was on earth? (Luke 18:1)
(7) I’m not sure where that door post came from. Maybe he refers to the Passover (Exodus 12:7). But his limp retort is an admission that, if the church of Christ existed before the death of Christ, it had not been atoned (reconciled to God, Romans 5:11, New King James Version, New American Standard Bible, English Standard Version). Certainly the people who compose the church exist before they are the church, but it is the blood of the atonement that makes them the church, those who are saved in Christ (Romans 5:10-11; Ephesians 1:22-23; 5:23; Acts 2:47).
(8) Well, here’s another passage he didn’t bother to read. God made Christ the Head of the church after He raised Him from the dead (Ephesians 1:15-23). Certainly He told the disciples what to say. But they did not yet comprise His church.
(9) They didn’t understand God was going to give His Son as a sacrifice (Matthew 16:21-23; John 20:9).
(10) So, Christ had His church, but he hadn’t bothered to purchase her as his bride! This is a classic case of pressing into a figure meanings that are not there. The church is the bride of Christ, purchased by His blood (Ephesians 5:25-27; Acts 20:28). She didn’t become His bride, His church, until He purchased her with His blood.
(11) John 10 (Shepherd and sheep) doesn’t mention the church. How much more organized could they get? How about the organization God gave His church after Christ ascended on high (Ephesians 4:8-16).
(12) Maybe he’s in favor of racial exclusiveness - racism (cf. Acts 2:39; 10:34-35; Romans 2:11).
Isaiah 2:2-3. I wish he would at least take the time to read the passages before replying. This prophecy was of the time when the gospel would go to all nations (Isaiah 2:3). What did he say about the passages that show the fulfillment of the prophecy and that mention the church as an historical reality?
What did he says about John being “THE Baptist”? Where does he find the Baptist Church mentioned in the Bible? Where was anyone ever called “A Baptist”? What about John 3:30? What did he say concerning Acts 19:1-5?
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